Comments on: Wagging The Dog

By: Malcolm

Malcolm — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:03:57 +0000

Good points all, Addofio. Of course, if one is so constituted to fear the corrosive effect of belief in determinism, then one will argue against it, so as to influence the behavior of the determinist in the general direction of dropping the subject — or will, at least, try to plump for the notion that the whole thing is an impenetrable Mystery.

All of which points out that, regardless of the truth or falsity of determinism at the microscopic level, what we do is still the result of the influences that impinge upon us, and of our own deliberations.

But more on this in forthcoming posts.

By: Addofio

Addofio — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:40:15 +0000

If determinism is the case–then neither I nor you have any choice regarding whether we believe it or not, fear it or not. What’s the point of discussing it, then? Oh, yes–we have no choice in the matter. Further–if person A believes n determinism, and person B does not, and person A is bothered by person B’s rejection of the idea–according to person A’s own belief, too bad. Person B can’t help it. Of course, neither can person A help being bothered. And off into an infinite spiral. Which, it seems to me, makes discussion about the question remarkably pointless, from a determinists point of view. Not that they can stop themselves, of course. But that’s where I came in.

Of course, that’s no evidence or argument against determinism–but I can’t help that :-)

By: Malcolm

Malcolm — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:23:32 +0000

There are all sorts of weird things that have gone against traditional materialism and determinism.

Well, perhaps, but they have been brought into the fold as our understanding has deepened, no? My position, of course, is that the same will happen for consciousness. But anyway, as noted in a previous entry in this series, consciousness and free will are quite separate issues. Would you say that our unconscious choices are as free as our “conscious” ones?

But if we haven’t believed it to be true, not just intellectually, but also all the way down to our bones, as it were, then that makes all the difference.

Ah — the point, I think. And this assertion, which I believe to be a harmless bogeyman, is just what we need to examine more closely. But I’m taking my time here.

By: Deogolwulf

Deogolwulf — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:05:23 +0000

“All of this stems from our apparent dread of the possibility that the ordinary causal processes that, as far as we can tell, order and impel the behavior of everything else in the entire Universe might apply to us as well.”

We allow for the possibility that there is something else about which we know nothing as concerns mentality, particularly when we behave by intuitive belief that there is something else, illusion or no. Now, this is not an argument for freewill as such, but rather for the idea that we believe in it despite our intellectual protestations — and very good ones they are too! And we must admit that it is a possibility. I have no idea that there couldn’t be some element in the universe that is self-determining, particularly as concerns that most interesting phenomenon, consciousness. There are all sorts of weird things that have gone against traditional materialism and determinism. I am aware that the stranger-than-we-can-suppose stance is a little annoying, but there it is.

“[D]eterminism, if true, has always been true, and we’ve done just fine so far.”

But if we haven’t believed it to be true, not just intellectually, but also all the way down to our bones, as it were, then that makes all the difference.