my point being that violence is the point of departure and that can be verbal (written ) -too
I’ve heard recently a mom “caused” the suicide of a teenager who upset her with scathing remarks over the internet-

so for my way of thinking, we need to be mindful of how we comport ourselves -civics 101 should be a prerequisit to graduating elementary school!

someone once said to me if push comes to shove -learn to fly- I find that impracticle advice,

instead I learned enough martial arts to give flying lessons to those who shove me-(Mac being much better than I in that regard!!)-

In any case violence should be our last & worst choice of activity… which is the root of tolerance for me -how much do I tolerate before I kick some ass? -I’d like to think I have a very long fuse that runs to some serious explosives-

as far as hurtful speach goes I laugh in their general direction!- my back is as a duck’s-quack quack-
love to all-Pat

I’m with Addofio and, apparently the Judiciary of one of the more “tolerant” nations of the Mid-East. How can we not be tolerant when we see such honorable conduct between brothers in law?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24738087-663,00.html

And of course there’s this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd100_mph_wreck

Now let’s be tolerant here.

Yes, this post wasn’t as focused as it might have been, I admit, and wasn’t one of my best.

You sum things up nicely here:

A lot of people do not accord this basic respect to all other humans, reserving it for those of their own kind, however they may define that consciously or unconsciously. I strongly suspect that this is a tendency bred into us by our evolution as a social species.

I quite agree.

I also think that getting past that–learning to accord this basic respect of which I speak to the entire human species–is, if you will, a meme (I hate that word, but you like it, so there it is) that is part of the “learning curve” for us as a species if we are to survive (which doesn’t look all that sure a thing these days, I know.) In any case, it is in direct competition with the “toxic memes” you so frequently cite in your blanket condemnation of religion.

I don’t know why you object to the word “meme”; I think it picks out a very useful concept. But yes, you’ve put your finger on it: the conflict here is a war of ideas; memes that move us beyond the “toxic” my-group-my-religion memes that have hold of so many minds are exactly what I am promoting. The old ones may have served us adaptively enough in a simpler and less-crowded world, but now they are a problem, and ought to go (though I do not make an undifferentiated, “blanket” condemnation of religion; some are quite harmless, while others pose a serious threat to us all).

Again: my beef is not with people, but ideas. I will not be kind to ideas that I think are foolish and destructive. I am certainly not de-humanizing anyone, and agree with you about a bedrock level of consideration that it is in our interest to accord everyone who has not actively and willfully forfeited it (we may disagree about what level of “respect” that entails, but I agree with you in principle).

I would like to pursue this with you further; I am not a monster, Addofio (you might be surprised at how congruent our list of admirable people would be). I will be offline all day, though, at the hospital with my elderly mother-in-law.

When I talk about “basic respect”, I am not talking about respect in the sense of admiration or high esteem. I am talking about something much more basic than that. It has more to do with acknowledgement of our common humanity than with high esteem or admiration.

Now, there are many people who are very ready to deny the humanity of others on one basis or another, and you may be among them. I, however, believe that, while we can and often should condemn the actions, or for that matter the words, of another, or restrain them from taking certain kinds of actions (even arguably to the point of killing them in some cases–I tend to waffle on that one), and stand in the way of their justification of such actions in whatever way we can–we nonetheless all share a basic humanity and that this should be respected. I need not admire George Bush (and don’t), and I am disgusted at many of his actions–but however reluctantly, I must acknowledge his humanity, and respect that.

I suppose that the respect I am talking about is, in a sense, respect due to one simply by virtue of that person’s having been born. (You sneer that “any beast can manage that;” yes, and to me that also earns them a level of respect in the sense I am talking about.) We all (humans; now I’m back to humans) come into this world willy-nilly, and we all have to face the reality of our own mortality, and we all do this as conscious beings. We must earn positive esteem, especially as adults, as you point out, and some people are certainly more admirable than others–though I would lay pretty long odds that my list of admirable peopel and yours would differ significantly–but that’s not what I am talking about with the term “basic respect”.

A lot of people do not accord this basic respect to all other humans, reserving it for those of their own kind, however they may define that consciously or unconsciously. I strongly suspect that this is a tendency bred into us by our evolution as a social species. I also think that getting past that–learning to accord this basic respect of which I speak to the entire human species–is, if you will, a meme (I hate that word, but you like it, so there it is) that is part of the “learning curve” for us as a species if we are to survive (which doesn’t look all that sure a thing these days, I know.) In any case, it is in direct competition with the “toxic memes” you so frequently cite in your blanket condemnation of religion.

I said I’d stick to one point, and I’m on at least point 1.5, so I’ll stop here.