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	<title>Comments on: Peeing And Becoming</title>
	<atom:link href="http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/</link>
	<description>I go many places</description>
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		<title>By: wisp</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155943</link>
		<dc:creator>wisp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155943</guid>
		<description>By the way, i don&#039;t buy my own a). Hahaha!

I know other animals feel this same urge too (i&#039;ve read that you can make a horse urinate if you make it hear running water, although i don&#039;t know why you&#039;d want to do that).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, i don&#8217;t buy my own a). Hahaha!</p>
<p>I know other animals feel this same urge too (i&#8217;ve read that you can make a horse urinate if you make it hear running water, although i don&#8217;t know why you&#8217;d want to do that).</p>
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		<title>By: wisp</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155942</link>
		<dc:creator>wisp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155942</guid>
		<description>I got two predictions from my model.

If it&#039;s right, you should also feel a similar urge to urinate if you SEE water, and if you DRINK water.

There&#039;s a limitation to the first one, though. Running water is healthier than still water (sorry, i don&#039;t know what you call it, English isn&#039;t my native language). So seeing RUNNING water could make a difference. 

The whole effect could be less than hearing water anyway (because it sounds easier for Evolution to carve a neural path that relates to the SOUND of running water than its SIGHT, which would require a more complex set of parameters).

My hypothesis could be saved even if we can&#039;t recycle urine in any way if:
a) We could do it in a distant past.
b) It&#039;s good to make room in the bladder for new urine.

But why do we keep urine in the bladder anyway?

Well, why do we? Why don&#039;t we pee in little amounts all the time?

Even if i was right, there are some elements clearly missing from the equation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got two predictions from my model.</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s right, you should also feel a similar urge to urinate if you SEE water, and if you DRINK water.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a limitation to the first one, though. Running water is healthier than still water (sorry, i don&#8217;t know what you call it, English isn&#8217;t my native language). So seeing RUNNING water could make a difference. </p>
<p>The whole effect could be less than hearing water anyway (because it sounds easier for Evolution to carve a neural path that relates to the SOUND of running water than its SIGHT, which would require a more complex set of parameters).</p>
<p>My hypothesis could be saved even if we can&#8217;t recycle urine in any way if:<br />
a) We could do it in a distant past.<br />
b) It&#8217;s good to make room in the bladder for new urine.</p>
<p>But why do we keep urine in the bladder anyway?</p>
<p>Well, why do we? Why don&#8217;t we pee in little amounts all the time?</p>
<p>Even if i was right, there are some elements clearly missing from the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155699</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155699</guid>
		<description>Yes, Wisp, I liked it too. I think my objection is a fatal one, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Wisp, I liked it too. I think my objection is a fatal one, though.</p>
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		<title>By: wisp</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155679</link>
		<dc:creator>wisp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155679</guid>
		<description>Very true, Malcom... Some recycling of urine would render my hypothesis much more believable...

I&#039;ve read that we have it, but i don&#039;t trust my source.

It&#039;s also possible that we once had it and we lost it before losing this lingering response to water.

I&#039;m still seduced by the simplicity of my hypothesis...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true, Malcom&#8230; Some recycling of urine would render my hypothesis much more believable&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read that we have it, but i don&#8217;t trust my source.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also possible that we once had it and we lost it before losing this lingering response to water.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still seduced by the simplicity of my hypothesis&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155441</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155441</guid>
		<description>The tree-trunk behavior does quiet the sound, which is consistent with my original hypothesis...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tree-trunk behavior does quiet the sound, which is consistent with my original hypothesis&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155440</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155440</guid>
		<description>Good one, wisp! That&#039;s a very interesting suggestion. 

To play Devil&#039;s advocate: I don&#039;t know of any mechanism by which the body can reclaim water from its urine, so it&#039;s hard to see why keeping it in the bladder helps in any way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good one, wisp! That&#8217;s a very interesting suggestion. </p>
<p>To play Devil&#8217;s advocate: I don&#8217;t know of any mechanism by which the body can reclaim water from its urine, so it&#8217;s hard to see why keeping it in the bladder helps in any way.</p>
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		<title>By: wisp</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155439</link>
		<dc:creator>wisp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155439</guid>
		<description>What some say about not giving yourself away by spreading your odor seems to oppose the male&#039;s urge to pee on tree trunks.

Perhaps that&#039;s not an instinct, but i think it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What some say about not giving yourself away by spreading your odor seems to oppose the male&#8217;s urge to pee on tree trunks.</p>
<p>Perhaps that&#8217;s not an instinct, but i think it is.</p>
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		<title>By: wisp</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-155438</link>
		<dc:creator>wisp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-155438</guid>
		<description>I think i really got this.

Peeing is good because it disposes of waste.

Being hydrated is good so we don&#039;t die.

A balance is needed.

When you hear water running, that&#039;s a good hint to stop economizing water. You&#039;ll be drinking soon enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think i really got this.</p>
<p>Peeing is good because it disposes of waste.</p>
<p>Being hydrated is good so we don&#8217;t die.</p>
<p>A balance is needed.</p>
<p>When you hear water running, that&#8217;s a good hint to stop economizing water. You&#8217;ll be drinking soon enough.</p>
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		<title>By: frost</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154435</link>
		<dc:creator>frost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 16:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154435</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;ve ever hiked the Kaibab Trail into the Grand Canyon you&#039;ve probably noticed that the mules all relieve themselves at the same time. You&#039;ll walk for a mile or two on a completely dry trail and then come upon a veritable swamp of urine and dung covering 20 to 50 yards.

My thought is that predators could use a continuous trail of odoriferous excretions to locate groups of prey. If every one of the members of the group unload in the same spot then there is less of a clue as to their presence and which way they went. Yes, there will still be an odor trace where they walked but this is much harder to detect from a distance and will dissipate sooner than excreta.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;ve ever hiked the Kaibab Trail into the Grand Canyon you&#8217;ve probably noticed that the mules all relieve themselves at the same time. You&#8217;ll walk for a mile or two on a completely dry trail and then come upon a veritable swamp of urine and dung covering 20 to 50 yards.</p>
<p>My thought is that predators could use a continuous trail of odoriferous excretions to locate groups of prey. If every one of the members of the group unload in the same spot then there is less of a clue as to their presence and which way they went. Yes, there will still be an odor trace where they walked but this is much harder to detect from a distance and will dissipate sooner than excreta.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154257</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 04:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154257</guid>
		<description>Hi Stiletto, and thanks for stopping by. That is indeed a pertinent question, to which I haven&#039;t an answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stiletto, and thanks for stopping by. That is indeed a pertinent question, to which I haven&#8217;t an answer.</p>
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		<title>By: The Stiletto</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154255</link>
		<dc:creator>The Stiletto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 03:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154255</guid>
		<description>A related - and equally provocative question - is: When did homo sapiens decide it is shameful to pee or poop in public? Animals just relieve themselves whenever and wherever the urge strikes. Properly toilet trained humans &quot;hold it&quot; until they can get to an appropriate facility or appropriately private spot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A related &#8211; and equally provocative question &#8211; is: When did homo sapiens decide it is shameful to pee or poop in public? Animals just relieve themselves whenever and wherever the urge strikes. Properly toilet trained humans &#8220;hold it&#8221; until they can get to an appropriate facility or appropriately private spot.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154137</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154137</guid>
		<description>Well, I actually tried it out on my kids, and it seemed to work. Certainly I don&#039;t recall ever &lt;em&gt;learning&lt;/em&gt; (not to mention teaching) this response. It seems pretty universal, as far as I can tell, though obviously I make no claims to scientific thoroughness here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I actually tried it out on my kids, and it seemed to work. Certainly I don&#8217;t recall ever <em>learning</em> (not to mention teaching) this response. It seems pretty universal, as far as I can tell, though obviously I make no claims to scientific thoroughness here.</p>
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		<title>By: bob koepp</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154136</link>
		<dc:creator>bob koepp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154136</guid>
		<description>Clearly present in infants? Every infant I&#039;ve encountered seemed to pee &quot;whenever.&quot; The only thing predictable was that _after_ peeing, there was a  (very) temporary reprieve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly present in infants? Every infant I&#8217;ve encountered seemed to pee &#8220;whenever.&#8221; The only thing predictable was that _after_ peeing, there was a  (very) temporary reprieve.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154129</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154129</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;What evidence do we have that Amazonian aboriginals (those not living with plumbing) have the same response?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

A fair question - though they&#039;ve been isolated so long that it might be a shared adaptation even if they don&#039;t.

I doubt it is a learned response, as it is clearly present in infants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;What evidence do we have that Amazonian aboriginals (those not living with plumbing) have the same response?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>A fair question &#8211; though they&#8217;ve been isolated so long that it might be a shared adaptation even if they don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I doubt it is a learned response, as it is clearly present in infants.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154124</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know that it isn&#039;t a &quot;learned&quot; response to the sound of peeing in the toilet Peeing on soggy soil in the Amazon won&#039;t make that sound. Could be the result of general associative learning, or empathetic response. What evidence do we have that Amazonian aboriginals (those not living with plumbing) have the same response? 

To be fair I&#039;ve had your thought more than once, but I cannot find a convincing way in which it would be adaptive. Removing everybody&#039;s urine away from you might be beneficial, but only really if everyone else is doing it (the benefit is frequency dependent), and only at rather high population densities. Defecation is a much more toxic waste, and the sound of running water doesn&#039;t inspire me to defecate...

Jacob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that it isn&#8217;t a &#8220;learned&#8221; response to the sound of peeing in the toilet Peeing on soggy soil in the Amazon won&#8217;t make that sound. Could be the result of general associative learning, or empathetic response. What evidence do we have that Amazonian aboriginals (those not living with plumbing) have the same response? </p>
<p>To be fair I&#8217;ve had your thought more than once, but I cannot find a convincing way in which it would be adaptive. Removing everybody&#8217;s urine away from you might be beneficial, but only really if everyone else is doing it (the benefit is frequency dependent), and only at rather high population densities. Defecation is a much more toxic waste, and the sound of running water doesn&#8217;t inspire me to defecate&#8230;</p>
<p>Jacob</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154118</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154118</guid>
		<description>An interesting thought, Jeffery, though by the time I hear you doing your business and get up to join, you&#039;re already off on your own, and probably finishing up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting thought, Jeffery, though by the time I hear you doing your business and get up to join, you&#8217;re already off on your own, and probably finishing up.</p>
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		<title>By: Horace Jeffery Hodges</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154099</link>
		<dc:creator>Horace Jeffery Hodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154099</guid>
		<description>We tend to yawn when others do. Is that useful? I suppose that there&#039;s safety in numbers. Perhaps people peed together because it was safer than alone. If you set out to pee, you generally walk off away from the camp, and nobody wants to do that alone . . . not at night, anyway. The urge to pee when hearing running water might stem from that practice as a side-effect.

Jeffery Hodges

* * *</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We tend to yawn when others do. Is that useful? I suppose that there&#8217;s safety in numbers. Perhaps people peed together because it was safer than alone. If you set out to pee, you generally walk off away from the camp, and nobody wants to do that alone . . . not at night, anyway. The urge to pee when hearing running water might stem from that practice as a side-effect.</p>
<p>Jeffery Hodges</p>
<p>* * *</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154095</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154095</guid>
		<description>I agree that not every trait is an adaptation -- Gould coined the term &quot;spandrels&quot; for those that aren&#039;t  -- but this one, I have a feeling, is; it seems too universal, and I think we can all agree that in some circumstances it is costly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that not every trait is an adaptation &#8212; Gould coined the term &#8220;spandrels&#8221; for those that aren&#8217;t  &#8212; but this one, I have a feeling, is; it seems too universal, and I think we can all agree that in some circumstances it is costly.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154094</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154094</guid>
		<description>Not every trait is an adaptation. And even if one were able to come up with a plausible explanation of how some trait might be adaptive in some environment, that is merely the first step in many one must take to link that proposed effect of the trait with its genesis. Evolution is a historical process, and requires historical explanations!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not every trait is an adaptation. And even if one were able to come up with a plausible explanation of how some trait might be adaptive in some environment, that is merely the first step in many one must take to link that proposed effect of the trait with its genesis. Evolution is a historical process, and requires historical explanations!</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/comment-page-1/#comment-154079</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://malcolmpollack.com/2009/09/28/peeing-and-becoming/#comment-154079</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve some ideas however I&#039;m not as able as some of ... well Peter for instance. I will admit the ex bought an indoor fountain that kept me up at night, soon yard saled. 

She however had her own (like your Grandmum apparently) habit of farting in the Wal-Mart checkout line then -prior to the full effect - turning and hotly chiding, &quot;&lt;em&gt;Damn you JK&lt;/em&gt; !!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve some ideas however I&#8217;m not as able as some of &#8230; well Peter for instance. I will admit the ex bought an indoor fountain that kept me up at night, soon yard saled. </p>
<p>She however had her own (like your Grandmum apparently) habit of farting in the Wal-Mart checkout line then -prior to the full effect &#8211; turning and hotly chiding, &#8220;<em>Damn you JK</em> !!&#8221;</p>
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