Questions About The Founding, Part 3: Jacques Replies to Michael Anton

This entry is part 4 of 8 in the series Michael Anton, Thomas West, and the Founding.

Our commenter Jacques has replied, in an email to me, to Michael Anton’s response (published in our previous post). I am posting it below.

Michael Anton (on the question of “natural rulers”): “One can raise all sorts of objections to this. For instance, if Trump is such a natural ruler, why did he lose the popular vote by three million votes?”

Jacques replies:This objection would be a dialectical mistake. Anton is claiming that nature hasn’t divided the species into rulers and ruled. He offered little evidence for this non-obvious claim, and so it is fair to merely note that, in fact, it appears that some people are naturally suited to ruling and that some are naturally suited to being ruled. And it does appear that way to many people, I think. When people are left to their own devices, they don’t typically organize themselves in an egalitarian or democratic fashion. Think of families, gangs and tribes and sports teams or rock bands. On Flight 93 it would have seemed to everyone that some people were acting as leaders and others were not. I guess one could argue that it does not appear to people that only some are natural rulers or leaders, but that gets us into some pretty subtle questions. Prima facie there seems to be no strong reason for accepting the claim that there is no natural hierarchy rather than the claim that there is one. (I am not insisting that there is one, by the way!)

In any case the issue of the popular vote seems like a red herring. Maybe this just shows that the masses may disagree about which individual is best suited to rule — Hilary or Donald. The disagreement is consistent with the hypothesis that only some sub-set of the population appears to them to be suited to that task, either naturally or non-naturally. I’d expect that most people who voted for Clinton also had the impression that Trump was far better (naturally) suited to rule than some other people, even if they also believed that Clinton was better suited (and even naturally better suited) than Trump.

But in any case why does it matter what the average voter thinks? The real question we each have to ask ourselves is what we think. I would be surprised if Anton could really maintain that he had never met some people who seemed to him to be naturally badly equipped for a leadership position, or at least far less well equipped naturally than others. In fact his main argument on this point is weak. He says that no one has ever consented to slavery. But then, as he points out, the ancients reasonably believed that only the wise could discern wisdom. So it could well be that many people don’t accept a position of slavery or servitude precisely because they are foolish and vicious; the mere fact that they don’t want that role is simply irrelevant unless we are all already assuming that everyone is equally wise and capable of sound judgment as to their own proper station in life. But of course that would beg the question in this context…

MA: “Then [J] compares slavery to being ruled. That is just silly. We are all ruled, especially in a rights-based republic…”

J: But it’s not silly at all! It touches on a profound question that modern theorists don’t like to investigate. What is slavery exactly? What are the special features of this particular kind of subordination or social inferiority or lack of autonomy that distinguish it from all the other kinds that everyone takes to be normal and acceptable? It’s actually pretty hard to answer these questions. Those we call ‘slaves’ are ruled in all kinds of ways, and in many ways they are less free or autonomous than someone like me. But then people working in a sweatshop or born into a community of multi-generational welfare dependency and illiteracy and poverty are also much less free and autonomous than someone like me, and all kinds of basic capacities and options and powers that I take for granted are impossible for them. And of course, my own life is very significantly shaped and determined by the decisions of rich and powerful people that I can’t remove from power; in most cases I can’t even get them on the phone. What we call ‘slavery’ is really just one vaguely defined range of human situations on a spectrum. So it makes sense to compare ‘slavery’ to other ways of being non-consensually ruled, controlled, constrained, directed, obligated… The comparisons are useful because they help us to step outside the familiar but false ways of thought encoded in mainstream political theory. For example the idea that “we consent to rule in order to accomplish things as a political community”. As you point out in your reply to Anton, this is mostly a fantasy. Americans don’t consent to the US Constitution or the decisions of Supreme Court judges, or the whims of the donors who run the parties, or the people who pay for the mass media, etc. There is no real consent, no real “community”. We are slave-like, in many ways, and the slaves were citizen-like, in many ways. At least it’s not obvious to me that there is a strict principled distinction between all the situations we describe as ‘slavery’ the other ones–or, in particular, the one we describe as ‘a rights-based republic’ or ‘democracy’ or ‘self-government’.

MA (on liberty and consent): “Your commenter Jacques objects to this, saying that ‘the highly intelligent, for example, are naturally more free and independent in many key respects than people who are borderline retarded.’ That’s just an assertion, he doesn’t say why, how, or in what way. In any case, for the founders “equally free and independent’ is a claim to moral status, to justice. The highly intelligent does not have a natural right to rule the borderline retarded. If Jacques thinks that is wrong, and there is such a natural right, he should explain how and from what it is derived, just the founders explain where they think the natural rights they cite come from.”

J (bold type added by MP): But the assertion is plausible if “freedom” and “independence” are understood in ordinary ways. For example, if freedom means being in a position to effectively pursue one’s aims, traits like high intelligence, stamina, foresight, charisma strength and resilience will tend to greatly enhance freedom. Of course there is no specific list of traits, but it’s plausible that certain personalities are far better situated to effectively pursue their aims than others–and that many of these differences are natural. If freedom does not mean what I take it to mean here, we should ask what exactly it means. Similar points seem to hold for “independence”. I’d suggest that given these plausible reflections, the onus is on the egalitarian to clarify and defend the idea that all are naturally equal with respect to freedom and equality.

The highly intelligent may not have a natural right to rule over the borderline retarded (or a natural duty to care for such people). I don’t know, as I doubt the existence of natural rights and the coherence of the concept. But I would say that if there are natural rights, it would make sense that people who are apparently naturally suited for leadership should be leaders and people whose natural capacities appear to suit them for subordinate roles in public life should have subordinate roles. Again, the burden of proof seems to lie with the egalitarian: demonstrate that there are natural rights, and that there are no natural rights to rule over others grounded in natural capacities and dispositions…

Next up: my emailed reply to Mr. Anton, and his response to me. Again I would like to thank Mr. Anton, who is certainly a busy man these days, for taking the time to engage with us on these important topics.

11 Comments

  1. John Q Public says

    “Again I would like to thank Mr. Anton, who is certainly a busy man these days, for taking the time to engage with us on these important topics.”

    Meh, he’s a college professor now. This is his job.

    Posted June 26, 2018 at 5:24 pm | Permalink
  2. Jason says

    Jacques, the stigma against slavery is quite obvious. People overwhelmingly reject it because they rightly see it as cruel and dehumanizing: no man – however intelligent or capable – should have total control over another – however dim or inadequate. This is a remarkably cross-cultural view in the 21st century, with individuals quite correctly rejecting the rationalizations that our ancestors made for the abhorrent practice. It’s as though you want to simplistically reject the revolutionary evolution that has occurred since the 19th century and say to the world: “Yes, you almost all are overwhelmingly instinctively revolted now by slavery for reasons of God’s will, natural law, or sociobiology, but if you REALLY put your minds to it then you could see slavery’s merit.”

    Posted June 26, 2018 at 6:03 pm | Permalink
  3. Jason says

    Jacques, after rereading my last statement, I wonder if I could be fairly accused of projecting too much, especially in my last sentence. Maybe I’m not giving you enough allowance to think out loud about comparisons between slavery and the more normal but politically incorrect coercion that exists in life, which as you suggested thinkers often don’t like to contemplate. Still, before we enter such a realm of analysis, shouldn’t we be cautious about even innocuously comparing oranges and apples, that the healthy dominance, say, a husband may exercise over his wife can in no way be equivalent to the proverbial master/slave relationship as is generally understood by most thoughtful individuals?

    Posted June 26, 2018 at 6:46 pm | Permalink
  4. Jacques says

    Hi Jason. Just to be clear, I myself think slavery is cruel and wrong. But I also think lots of other social and economic roles are cruel and arguably wrong. Anyway I don’t mean to defend slavery. I’m suggesting that modern thought doesn’t have the resources to explain why it is wrong, or why many other things are categorically different from slavery. If that makes sense!

    Posted June 26, 2018 at 8:18 pm | Permalink
  5. Jacques says

    Jason: I wonder whether _all_ cases of slavery have really been “in no way equivalent” to the “healthy dominance” of man over woman. How do we know this? In some forms of actual (so-called) slavery the slave has considerable autonomy. More than some “free” workers. (And some slaves did get paid too.) If we are imagining slavery as a condition where one person has zero power or freedom and another has “total” power over him, that does seem unhealthy; but it describes only some cases of “slavery” and probably not the majority… If instead we are talking about historical paradigms it seems unclear how these cases would all be categorically different from any case of organic or healthy dominance.

    Posted June 26, 2018 at 8:30 pm | Permalink
  6. Jason says

    Thanks for your responses Jacques. You’re of course right that one cannot posit a monolithic view of slavery throughout history. During the long Roman period for example, to allude to your points, slaves could have it better in a sense than their poorer “free” brethren.
    Still, I disagree that we don’t have the moral vocabulary to draw some boundaries, to say that “these are examples of slavery, in everyting but name anyway, and efforts should be made to end them.” Child soldiers being drafted into armies in Africa against the will of their families, child labor sleeping on their machines in sweatshops, young women violently coerced to participate in the sex trade in Asian countries: aren’t these all at least de facto cases of slavery that should in no uncertain terms be condemned – EVEN IF there may be a certain consent involved in some of the individual cases?

    Posted June 27, 2018 at 6:02 pm | Permalink
  7. Jimmy says

    Put me on team Jacques in this one. Great exchange.

    Posted June 28, 2018 at 3:03 am | Permalink
  8. Jimmy says

    One more thing; and this is a very qualitative critique but take it or leave it (Anton is a highly intelligent man and eloquent writer, he has my respect).

    It is difficult not to glimpse the romance in Anton’s defence of the founders amongst the hard headed history. This talk of rights and justice and the natural or synthetic nature of same reminds me of counting angels on pinheads. It contrasts heavily with say, Moldbugs hard headed establishment of a political theory sans any recourse to transcendent morality and truly coming to grips with the reality of the human condition on it’s own terms.

    It reminds me of mathematicians and physicists, overwhelmingly atheistic, spellbound and compulsively speaking of the beauty of the universe. There’s an unmistakable sense you have left the realm of science and entered the land of poetry. Similar here from political philosophy slowly slides towards religion.

    And indeed we find so many constitutional conservatives so spellbound as this glimpse would suggest. Spellbound enough to not only permit the surrender of their countries, but then defend it.

    Posted June 28, 2018 at 4:48 am | Permalink
  9. Jacques says

    Hi Jason,
    I fully agree that we can (and should) say that those things are wrong. Child soldiers, sweatshop labor, etc. I meant only that modern philosophy (or all philosophy perhaps) lacks the resources to properly explain why such things are wrong. For instance the appeal to natural rights without theology is inadequate in my view. But I am not skeptical about ghe wrongness of these terrible things.

    Posted June 28, 2018 at 10:19 am | Permalink
  10. Fred says

    Slavery is not owning the output of your own labor. A man in chains without cause is unlawful (unjust before God) imprisonment. There is a difference. A black man in chains is not slavery because he is black, it’s slavery because he doesn’t own his labor, the chains are unlawful imprisonment to that end unless he is not made to work, then it’s only imprisonment. And due to our fine education system, Americans do know what slavery really is, it has zero to do with race or chains. I submit, taxation at 50 percent all in, is halfway to slavery. Nobody pays it because they want to yet we are not bound by fetters.

    Posted October 23, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink
  11. With respect to the “popular vote” tally in the 2016 presidential election, it is by no means clear that Trump lost the popular vote among legal voters. A powerful argument can be made that illegal voting amounted to more than the margin of loss in the popular vote.

    Given the electoral college system, that is not relevant in the abstract, but it is a mistake to grant the Left any legitimacy on this issue at all.

    Posted October 24, 2019 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

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